Give them metabolize for free. It's a part of the vanilla fade. Make 3 biomass metabolize upgrade the same as advanced metabolize. Replace advanced metabolize upgrade with something else.

I like this, it opens up the potential for having an earlier hive without gimping your fades (no metab when they pop), and gives alien commanders more options instead of having to get biomass 3 and metab before a hive drop. My only suggestion would be to move advanced metab to biomass 4 so you have to have a 2nd hive, otherwise aliens would have fully upgraded fades on 1 hive, which doesn't seem too balanced.

I think if you increase the cooldown of metabolize a little, then make the original metabolize (3 biomass) reduce the cooldown... or make the 3 biomass "advanced metabolize" and make 5 biomass the reduction to cooldown.

why are we buffing fades again?

phonee says

why are we buffing fades again?

Fade is super weak in ns2 in general? Aliens at high level comp tend too lose much more so a buff to them

Simba says

Give them metabolize for free. It's a part of the vanilla fade. Make 3 biomass metabolize upgrade the same as advanced metabolize. Replace advanced metabolize upgrade with something else.

Could write a long article on why this is such a bad idea but going for a short version.

1. Metabolize upgrade requirement was added so aliens would not always get full powered fades when mariens did eco damage to them. Allowing Fades to start with metabolize would remove the tech requirement and would make res damage less impactful in the early game. This could have a snowballing effect on other alien tech and amount of early game pve.
2. If advance metabolize was bio 3 the fade would have way to much early game sustainability, you are underestimating the strength of fades and how much impact this would have. They would be able to pick recappers in the early game and be able to regen to full hp without going back to the hive, giving them way more map presence.


The simplest way to buff fades would be increase in hp or more hp per biomass. Another way would be giving them more mobility in combat with small adjustment to blink or energy cost. This would have way less impact on the whole game while buffing the fade.
Considering how strong fades can become these changes have to be tested with lots of 1v1 and 1v2 combat.

I do agree that it would be nice to see playing fade less punishing (less pres cost) or big increase in their combat strength so they don't have to run away after 1 direct shotgun blast. But that would require a change to both teams.

A lot of people that don't play Fade these days like to say: "People forgot how to play Fades." The main issue for me is what Grissi said: They have to run away after 1 direct shotgun blast. A good Marine will wait for that shot and it forces the Fade to disengage. You can dodge all you want before the engagement, but you still have to get up close and personal to land your swipes.

I would prefer the hp or biomass buff for more survivability. I also think the small adjustment to blink cost would be beneficial as well, but all things would need to be tested.

loMe says

A lot of people that don't play Fade these days like to say: "People forgot how to play Fades." The main issue for me is what Grissi said: They have to run away after 1 direct shotgun blast.

I'm not sure which side of the fence I sit on with this argument yet, but one thing I'd like to argue against is the presumption of fades playing solo or together with another fade, instead of other lifeforms like bile gorge / lerk spikes / skulks.

If you add those into an equation when fighting against SGs, you do kind of get a balance where fades aren't terribly weak i.e.
1. Lerks spiking dmg and forcing marines into bad position
2. Bile gorge removing armor / ?heal capacity mid fight / ?babblers absorb 1 SG shot
3. Skulks either tanking a SG shot, or doing the dmg whilst fades tank/bait shots

This is a little nod towards the L2P argument and alien team play being pretty bad atm

migalski says

phonee says

why are we buffing fades again?

Fade is super weak in ns2 in general? Aliens at high level comp tend too lose much more so a buff to them

nawwww high level alien fades only lose them when they take dumbass risks they dont need to. youre refering to gather fades who take dumbass fights in hub vs 2 marines with 1 rotating in as your whole team heals. im with wob here L2P guys LoLZ

i've got 2 trains of thought here my first is:
figure out something that makes biomass 6 help fades tank more sg blasts.

quick simba do the math on wep 2/3 sg vs fade hp, then adjust biomass to scale where it puts them out of range of getting 2 hit

also something i'd rather explore is changing how fade speed works. right now fades play like poussays until their celerity upgrade.

i wanna see:
-base fade speed buffed
-celerity upgrade nerfed
so that we see the same speed on fades with cele 2/3 upgrade, but this encourages fade players and alien commanders to consider going crag hive first instead of always playing shift. the current meta is stale, lets shift it up where we have walk em sock em fades that run into 3 sgs and blink out.

in conjuction with this crag hive first buff i'd also like to see (a suggestion made by Turts McGurts) fade regenning in combat. and im not talking 7% regen like they do out of combat, im talkin a reduced 3.0-3.5% combat regeneration, then back to 7% regen out of combat. i think this is the playstyle you wanna see simba, because really FADES WITH ADV METAB BIOMASS 3 is actually ridiculous, and starting with metab would be real legit regarding building 3 whips at the start of every map since u would need to get biomass. and we all know how marine players love shooting structures

my last idea is a nerf to phase gate armor. now i know a lot of you don't know that comp mod shifted pg HP to ARMOR, but my suggestion would be to nerf some of that. reducing pg armor allows fades to WORK TOGETHER WITH OTHER LIFEFORMS to take down pgs.

think of this scenario: pg is 100% in double (nano to you ns2tards) 1 fades and 1 skulk and 1 lerk start grindin it, marines phase through with a2 and medspam, 3 marines die in engagement, along with the lerk and the skulk. the other fade rotates in and we now have 2 fades vs a pg with like sub 10% armor. now if i was a smart FADE even after that engagement id try to stay in and take the pg with 75 dmg swipes. to compensate for this stealth nerf on PGS i'd also propose a PG HP BUFF, nothing 2 big but like 10%-20% HP increase (not armor) would help commanders like me who still entertain the idea of rushing PGs.

ALSO can we look @ mines, are we all just bad or do these things work. also can of worms opened r1p

Wob says

loMe says

A lot of people that don't play Fade these days like to say: "People forgot how to play Fades." The main issue for me is what Grissi said: They have to run away after 1 direct shotgun blast.

I'm not sure which side of the fence I sit on with this argument yet, but one thing I'd like to argue against is the presumption of fades playing solo or together with another fade, instead of other lifeforms like bile gorge / lerk spikes / skulks.

If you add those into an equation when fighting against SGs, you do kind of get a balance where fades aren't terribly weak i.e.
1. Lerks spiking dmg and forcing marines into bad position
2. Bile gorge removing armor / ?heal capacity mid fight / ?babblers absorb 1 SG shot
3. Skulks either tanking a SG shot, or doing the dmg whilst fades tank/bait shots

This is a little nod towards the L2P argument and alien team play being pretty bad atm

I stand in this corner.

Currently Fade is not weak at all. It just requires good team play to accomplish things vs good marines or extremely smart individual play.

If you make Fade stronger and more independent like NS1 Fade, things will break. Atm the shotgun fire rate is that if the Fade plays well off of a teammate, the marine will die to him or the teammate. Situationally dependent ofc.

migalski says

phonee says

why are we buffing fades again?

Fade is super weak in ns2 in general? Aliens at high level comp tend too lose much more so a buff to them

It's not "weak" but often requires teamplay to accomplish big things .. a good celerity Fade with the right timing can land 4 swipes roughly before 3 shots comes to kill him against a good marine. As the swipe rate is slightly faster than the SG rate.

The ability to get in and out like lightning as well, he rarely has to commit to the marine like that to get something done.

Valid points. This was just interesting discussion that came out of the comp mod slack channel, and I wanted to put it here so everyone can discuss it. Otherwise it would never get discussed, because people are too afraid to make these posts themselves.

I just learned the regen amount does not factor in the biomass health. It only uses the raw vanilla health when determining the rate.

phonee says

i've got 2 trains of thought here my first is:
figure out something that makes biomass 6 help fades tank more sg blasts.

quick simba do the math on wep 2/3 sg vs fade hp, then adjust biomass to scale where it puts them out of range of getting 2 hit

also something i'd rather explore is changing how fade speed works. right now fades play like poussays until their celerity upgrade.

i wanna see:
-base fade speed buffed
-celerity upgrade nerfed
so that we see the same speed on fades with cele 2/3 upgrade, but this encourages fade players and alien commanders to consider going crag hive first instead of always playing shift. the current meta is stale, lets shift it up where we have walk em sock em fades that run into 3 sgs and blink out.

- The 6 biomass buff to fades so they can take another shotgun blast could work since you need to do some good things to get there as a team. The thing is, are fades dying at 6 biomass easily in fights where they should be stronger?

- The base speed increase could work with the nerf on celerity - anything to make commanders consider other options first. Also, you should be able to play fade with a buff to base speed - metab would then be a glaring omission if you didn't have it when fades popped.

Simba says

Give them metabolize for free. It's a part of the vanilla fade. Make 3 biomass metabolize upgrade the same as advanced metabolize. Replace advanced metabolize upgrade with something else.

- The idea to have metab without an upgrade probably would be too strong. It should be some type of res commitment for the alien team to get metab. If you take that away, then the marines really haven't gained much by having a good start as Grissi wrote.

Locklear says

Currently Fade is not weak at all. It just requires good team play to accomplish things vs good marines or extremely smart individual play.

It's not "weak" but often requires teamplay to accomplish big things .. a good celerity Fade with the right timing can land 4 swipes roughly before 3 shots comes to kill him against a good marine. As the swipe rate is slightly faster than the SG rate.

The ability to get in and out like lightning as well, he rarely has to commit to the marine like that to get something done.

I agree with Locklear, and I wonder if some of the thoughts on fades being weak is partly due to the fact that teams haven't been practicing much and therefore fades are weakened in fights. Fades are so reliant on team play/lerks in certain moments. If you lose your lerks or they aren't very good, then yes fades can be weak against good sg players. Also if fades don't work together they can be weak against good sg players. If you have both, then playing fade is fun. All of it is dependent on good alien team play and why it's so important.

Long story short: If you guys want a stronger independent fade, play NS2C instead.

To touch the Fade in the current state would effect WAY too many things atm.

Locklear says

Long story short: If you guys want a stronger independent fade, play NS2C instead.

To touch the Fade in the current state would effect WAY too many things atm.

I do think phonee's idea on increasing base speed of fade and nerf on celerity might not effect too many things and would possibly lead to different tech paths. Since you have to play fade sometimes without celerity, and people probably played it more in the past before everyone went shift first (if that ever happened). You do have to adjust your fade play based on different speeds already.

Edit:
The issue I could see is: if you increase base speed and nerf clerity speed, would people use adrenaline more? If so, would that make fades a little stronger? You could possibly get by without having to get metab right away.

Also, the increase on hp of fade by time biomass 6 hits could go either way.

Deckard says

I do think phonee's idea on increasing base speed of fade and nerf on celerity might not effect too many things and would possibly lead to different tech paths. Since you have to play fade sometimes without celerity, and people probably played it more in the past before everyone went shift first (if that ever happened). You do have to adjust your fade play based on different speeds already. Also, the increase on hp of fade by time biomass 6 hits could go either way.

#theorycraft

It's a straight buff to Fades that while I would be interested in experimenting with I think would lead to the Fades winning more engagements and making things slightly OP in the aliens favor during the early to midgame.

They basically get the best of both worlds, a lil bit of cele with a full crag/shade upg + metab on hive 1.

Biomass 6 already puts Fades at a pretty healthy pre-cara hitpoint pool I think. ~435 if I'm not mistaken.

+5 HP per Biomass with a starting pool of 250/80 = 410 effective HP and if you add on 5x5 = 25 hp you get a ~435 HP Fade.

(edited HP due to Golden correction)

Still not enough to survive two W3 shotgun blasts without some form of regenerative tick but if you tack on carapace you are more than capable of taking some late game heat.

Locklear says

Deckard says

I do think phonee's idea on increasing base speed of fade and nerf on celerity might not effect too many things and would possibly lead to different tech paths. Since you have to play fade sometimes without celerity, and people probably played it more in the past before everyone went shift first (if that ever happened). You do have to adjust your fade play based on different speeds already. Also, the increase on hp of fade by time biomass 6 hits could go either way.

#theorycraft

It's a straight buff to Fades that while I would be interested in experimenting with I think would lead to the Fades winning more engagements and making things slightly OP in the aliens favor during the early to midgame.

They basically get the best of both worlds, a lil bit of cele with a full crag/shade upg + metab on hive 1.

Biomass 6 already puts Fades at a pretty healthy pre-cara hitpoint pool I think. ~440 if I'm not mistaken.

+5 HP per Biomass with a starting pool of 250/80 = 410 effective HP and if you add on 6x5 = 30 hp you get a ~440 HP Fade.

Still not enough to survive two W3 shotgun blasts without some form of regenerative tick but if you tack on carapace you are more than capable of taking some late game heat.

How bout buff to base speed, nerf to celerity and no metab on 1 hive? Forces you to get adrenaline before hive 1, but you're still faster then you were before. Changes the tech path possibly for aliens. Then you could possibly attach advanced metab to regular metab on bitomass 4-6 (somewhere). Then you don't need to change fade hp at all - gives people their strong hive 2 fade but still can be killed with the right sg blasts. Potential issue, would fades be too weak before hive 2 is up?

Sounds like an awful lot of changes that don't really accomplish anything other than try to rebalance the Fade in a really strange way.

Locklear says

Sounds like an awful lot of changes that don't really accomplish anything other than try to rebalance the Fade in a really strange way.

I agree that it might seem like a lot, but I was just trying to offer a way to possibly buff hive 2 fade which people seem to want, but not change the way they can die to shots on target. Also I think phonee was trying to suggest someway to make alien commanders consider another tech path. I don't know if the game is at it's best if there is only one correct path.

I think buffing Fades in any shape or form with the current state of Lerks is a very iffy idea. I think people underestimate how strong they truly are in conjunction with teamplay and drifter support.

(enzyme+mucous/halluc spikes/swipes with other forms of teamplay going on from focus firing targets and skulks/lerks playing off of the fades)

As I said, it would be interesting to try but I would wager things would get alien sided with even the slightest of changes.

I am of the opinion that it's fine for the movement based hive to be the first hive and then your second hive depends more on your team's choice of style or based on the current situation.

I don't disagree that buffing fades could make it more alien sided. The last idea I'll put out there is to make the following on hive 1 (base speed increase, metab would be with biomass currently, celerity would give you current celerity speed), and hive 2 you could have increase to current celerity speed if you went shift hive. This would have a slight/reduced buff. It might be a nerf to fades before hive 2 though if they didn't have shift since they would be slower, but not too slow. Hive 1 fade without shift would have speed somewhere between current no celerity speed and celerity speed.

Basically this would allow for commanders to consider another tech path early. It would also force fades to play differently with 1 or 2 hives if they didn't go shift early. If that isn't important or this creates too many issues, then it probably ends up being kept as is.

I would hold off on any potential fade changes until the medpack issue has been sorted. If you have 2tres meds in play, then the fade is going to have a much easier time at finishing rines off. Keep in mind that an increase cost to meds will likely result in delayed upgrades in many scenarios, so the fade should have a bit more presence because of this too.

I agree with Grissi though that the research of metab was put in place to ensure that fades can't instantly dominate.

Also I don't think anyone has really identified or outlined what the issue with fades really is in this thread yet. Which of their mechanics is weak? What aspects need improvement ? What part of the game does their effectiveness drop off ?

These are the questions you need to establish and answer first, then go from there.

Imo, the weakest aspect of fades at the moment is their late game potential when you see 3 3 or 3 2 jp marines. It's very hard for them to deal with anything especially with the current 1tres med spam on these highly mobile marines.

I've always been an advocate for something like a high tres research cost acid rocket to come back in to help them deal with high marine HP and armour values and crowd control, but I'd like to see how the increased cost of meds affect marines mid-late game first.

I agree with wob and locklear, if you make fades more survivable they could easily move into OP territory.

The only thing that needs work is swipe hit reg...

Sardine says

I agree with wob and locklear, if you make fades more survivable they could easily move into OP territory.

The only thing that needs work is swipe hit reg...

300+ ping hit reg? Can't be easy, I still applaud you for doing as well as you do with it.

Realistic fade change list (see my posts circa 2013)

1. Swipe back to 80 dmg

2. Attack speed increase (counters retartedly easy shotgun solos)

Unfortunately there's no way with the current economy to create the fantastically cool 1 fade gameplay without causing the "fade ball." I always hated that nomenclature..

Frozen says

Realistic fade change list (see my posts circa 2013)

1. Swipe back to 80 dmg

2. Attack speed increase (counters retartedly easy shotgun solos)

Unfortunately there's no way with the current economy to create the fantastically cool 1 fade gameplay without causing the "fade ball." I always hated that nomenclature..

Forget about Enzyme?

Fade attack rate is 0.65 and sg is 0.7

80 damage is unnecessary with what the Lerk is capable of except maybe late late game.

It's true with a couple of spikes it's negated, good point. But if you're able to take down the arms lab, fades should really have a chance at field day in marine spawn without a lerk. They can still get 2.5 shotted by 5 beacon-ed 0/0 marines though.

Frozen says

It's true with a couple of spikes it's negated, good point. But if you're able to take down the arms lab, fades should really have a chance at field day in marine spawn without a lerk. They can still get 2.5 shotted by 5 beacon-ed 0/0 marines though.

It's pretty much ez mode for fades when the arms lab goes down regardless... but 5 marines in a room can output a retarded amount of dps no matter what lifeform you have.

i think taking /down/ a pg is a good trade for when you getting the /arms lab/ down during a push.

why /are/ you sO FIXATED on killing 5 marines with the arms lab goes down. ns1 had this fucking problem, a fade would /rANDOMLY/ Wander in the marine start during a push and kill the arms lab, then all marines get 1 shot by focus swipe fades and they usually lost the game.

marines have a choice: they either /have/ to take a fight through the pg w/itho/ut an arms lab vs /2 hive/ life for/m/s with a gorge/shift/crag probably nearby /or/ marines have to sac the pg (losi/ng/ all map co/ntr/ol and probably the game) and get the arms lab back up.

phonee says

i think taking /down/ a pg is a good trade for when you getting the /arms lab/ down during a push.

why /are/ you sO FIXATED on killing 5 marines with the arms lab goes down. ns1 had this fucking problem, a fade would /rANDOMLY/ Wander in the marine start during a push and kill the arms lab, then all marines get 1 shot by focus swipe fades and they usually lost the game.

marines have a choice: they either /have/ to take a fight through the pg w/itho/ut an arms lab vs /2 hive/ life for/m/s with a gorge/shift/crag probably nearby /or/ marines have to sac the pg (losi/ng/ all map co/ntr/ol and probably the game) and get the arms lab back up.

Except a fade (or even 2) can't kill an arms lab, really. And there's no focus.