Hey peeps,
ns2_docking2 had just received last 'bigger' update, overhauling parts of the map. From now on, it's bugfixes and texture updates only. It was tested for pathing bugs and such with some games, but we would like to urge you to get some playtime on it and if you find anything wrong, report it to Meph in his feedback thread. Could be easy 2 points in week 6 or nice pick map in playoffs.
Mineral did it back in season 6, Docking2 did it during season 7. You've got plenty of time to see the changes and learn them before the map is played so don't worry :)
@Kash just because its done before doesnt mean its a great idea... its actually really REALLY annoying at best. Which is the same reason that we arent testing 2 res medpacks!
"It is wisdom to recognize necessity, when all other courses have been weighed, despite as folly it may appear to those who cling to false hope" - J.R.R. Tolkien
I know its not ideal, but central was causing a lot of issues with a lot of people so it had to be changed... the changes are for the better. and with week 6 (and potentially playoffs) being the only time it is played, I don't see it as a big deal. people have 3+ weeks to check it out and see the changes, and for the most part the changes don't affect the map drastically, they just make it flow better and feel more comfortable for people unfamiliar with the map layout.
I honestly dislike this map, as much as people like to argue it's supposedly be better than the original docking.
Let's start with the marines initial start point. You go towards landing pad and you have a uselsess little connector there with a spaceship, why? Then you have a giant room (Landing Pad) which is completely absurd. I know for me the best feeling is that every time i go to leave the base i might have to check the ENTIRE giant room to make sure no aliens are hiding there. Where i have to go around another stupid spaceship.
Storage is another massive room with a lack of cover. Why is every section so big?
Cafeteria is bare, and i find the RT is in a very weird position behind the hive. I think the room is just poorly created, and as a result it's the only place where the RT would have a chance.
For look-out I have no idea why you have the stairs down towards the window, you are making the room far larger than it needs to be.
Bar and those little areas are fine.
Lab is just a ridiculous and needs better placed coverage. Marines can just stand by the RT and shoot the hive. Not only that but that RT then even gives marines coverage if there is a lerk, to weld and everything. Why give such a huge line of sight?
I don't understand Ballcourt. The area with the chairs... ? pointless area... then you have a tram there, that you can get ontop of..
Pipe maintenance is a nice room, plenty of cover and areas to go, you even have decent vents to get out. in multiple ways.
Generator plays alright at times. Hit and miss.
I really like Cooling, i find this and pipe maintenance are the better parts of the map.
I find that Departures hive needs to have something better to block the hive a bit considering the room is bigger. Heck from cooling to the connector to departures, you can just get a GL and launch nades over and hit the hive. can just have marines covering you by the doorway. or you can stand in the room in the right corner... yeah there is a vent, but that can be easy to cover, Or you can even have a marine jump into that vent by the connector and toss nades over.
Platform is nice, i enjoy it there.
Escalator i don't get why that area is so big, can see so much from all around, especially if you jump onto the roof of the little ... canteen place?
And finally hangar, i just don't get why there's a big spaceship in there.. not needed can replace with boxes or something.. having such a huge prop in there eugh.. The only upside is that the Obs can be put in a nice position behind the RT to be able to see people coming from both landing and escalator, but even then.
I've played the map several times, and honestly. still not a fan of it and think it's bad for competitive play until more changes are made..
I would like to thank meph for taking the time to trying to make the map better.. I just think it needs more work and thought put behind the layout of rooms.
Edit: But I guess by playing it in week 6, a lot of the issues will be shown, thus allowinjg for more proper updates to be made.
while I would have aprreciated to read this in the feedback thread you might have noticed that the latest changes where done to north and central area of the map. Most of your complaints aim towards the south though. You can guess which areas will be reqorked next right ;)
well actually the plan is to change cafeteria, look-out and ballcourt until season 10. Originally the central changes were planned for season 10 aswell but I did them earlier than expected. So in season 10 I assume you will see a little revamp of the southern techhpoints and RT rooms
EDIT: funnily enough lot's of official maps have rediculous lign of sights but no one complains... wonder why
"It is wisdom to recognize necessity, when all other courses have been weighed, despite as folly it may appear to those who cling to false hope" - J.R.R. Tolkien
Here are a few line of sights for people to check out on the official maps, and those are just a few I can think of on the spot without going in game and pointing them out/having something to look at for reference.
Veil -
Overlook > Sub access
System waypointing > Y-Junction
Cargo
Summit -
Flight control (pretty much all of it tbh)
Crossroads
Crevice
Atrium
Descent -
Hydro (east to west)
Plaza
Water Treatment (north to south)
Biodome -
Seeding (north to south)
Falls (multiple)
Platform
Tram -
South to North tunnels
Mezzanine (east to west)
Logistics to repair
Jambi - (I know its not official but still, its played like it is)
Skylights (east to west)
Shipping
Electrical core > skylights
Veil - Overlook to sub doesn't really give you map positioning, its quit out of the way, System to Y can easily be bypassed quickly via vents or going around nano, cargo is only very open if you get to the outsides or southern area, the northern you can easily be ambushed when entering.
Descent - not really played often, like a larger summit but base rushing is much easier due to lanes being more difficult to cover and the vents that are setup.
Biodome - seeding is suppose to be a marine natural and its already very easy to ambush entering the room and leaving, and you cant really see it to be honest, many barriers that break line of sight, Falls and Platform are both marine sided but then again so is the map, it requires much more strong team play.
Tram - N/S tunnels are also very easily to setup ambushes in between the rooms, line of sight is only very good in specific spots. Mezzanine is a marine sided room generally which gives marines a strong foothold if they manage to take it. Logy -> repair only gives line of sight when lane blocking really, you cant really cover the power or rt from that view and forcing the marine into repair allows for easy ambushes.
Jambi - skylights doesn't really do much on the map if taken, it gives you 2 rts but if crushed is hard to reinforce from gravity due to distance. Shipping is right outside of the marine base, it would be incredibly easy to keep marines trapped in their naturals if it was at all alien sided. Ec -> skylights is the same as skylights, it really doesn't do too much, taking the right side of the map is much more rewarding as well as harder as its in general more alien favored.
I haven't played the new iteration of docking2 but in the previous one a large problem was that the map was simply too large and too open, it was like playing eclipse with larger hallways and occasional tight corridors. On top of that the southern side in general was horrendous; every room was extremely open with very little ambush spots and when they did exist they were made pretty poorly, it would just be a straight wall separating rooms per say and if a marine prefired that, you're fucked.
Large rooms aren't terrible in general but to make it more balanced they either need to be kinda of out of the way and difficult to backup if lost or like have an area that aliens could ambush in between them and have that area created very well.
Yet again i haven't played the new iteration but i hope that gives a bit of insight as to why the spots are included and why they don't matter as much as you honestly think. (Some of this may be wrong, kinda just threw it together)
1. docking2 is still in beta stages, so getting the layout balanced is what is most important (making it so that no spawn is OP or Weak in comparison to others), which believe it or not its pretty damn close to... after that, room balancing is the step that needs to be fixed, which largely comes with detailing and geometry work... so a map that is in early stages of development is being compared to maps that have been officially released as finished (some of which were then tweaked and balanced after official release due to problems slipping through)
2. my line of sight examples weren't intended as a huge thing, my point was that a lot of line of sights do exist in the official maps (whether those line of sights create huge map imbalances or not is a different matter, the LoS exists), so to expect custom maps to adhere to a higher standard is just unreasonable, some LoS is okay, too much is not.
3. You point out a few things like "Falls and Platform are both marine sided but then again so is the map, it requires much more strong team play." as a defense of biodome, "Shipping is right outside of the marine base, it would be incredibly easy to keep marines trapped in their naturals if it was at all alien sided" in defense of jambi... but docking2 being a bit marine sided in an undetailed stage is for some reason a huge deal to everyone. especially when you describe all the rooms that are potentially marine naturals as being "marine sided"... storage, platform and access are the potential marine naturals due to the 2 possible marine spawns... when they are detailed they will play and feel better, but at the moment getting the layout of the whole map to a state where the spawns feel balanced is the priority. Once that is done meph can concentrate more on making each room make more sense.
I hope that made sense, i'm very tired while I write this.
1. So why do we have a map still in beta stages being played in the current season?
2. There's a reason many of the official maps aren't played competitively, and the maps that are don't have that many giant LoS spots, whereas docking 2 in the old build(still haven't played a new one) is pretty atrocious with giant LoS, and how syknik describes it, it still hasn't been fixed. Its not being held to a higher standard, but a similar one which it so far fails to reach -> go to point 1
3. The problem with docking2 has been that it is that its extremely marine sided in almost every way bar the fact that its so large.
The problem with making all the rooms that are potential marine natural marine sided is that well you've now accidentally made the entire south side marine favored, making a default spawn for marines would improve this significantly. And yet again we go back to point 1.
In the end LoS isn't everything, it's more about how the LoS comes into the gameplay, for scouting, holding gates etc. and it shows most of the regular maps, whereas in docking2, it affects gameplay significantly, most rooms are like marine heaven and that really needs to be fixed
The reason the map is in the rotation is because there was a custom map cup held and people were allowed to then vote which custom maps got brought into the map pool. Docking2 was one of them because people see the potential in it.
Mephilles is designing the map to be DIFFERENT from other competitive maps, How is it different you ask? well, its simple. he has created a 5TP pinwheel inspired map with 2 marine starts and 3 alien starts, something no other competitive map does. Originally it was intended to be inspired by docking (hense the name) but over time it has strayed farther and farther away from that theme. once the spawns themselves are balanced (which as previously stated is incredibly close to being done, in season 10 cafeteria will have been altered which is currently the only spawn point issue) then the room designs can be fleshed out, currently, the only thing that could potentially be done with most of the LoS that people complain about is just have random boxes thrown in the way to prevent LoS... and there have been a lot of complaints about that in the past.
This map is unique, and it is difficult to balance, but not impossible, it is progressing well and without the competitive scenes feedback it likely wouldn't be anywhere near as far along in its progression as it is now.
Yes it has its flaws, but once you actually play it more than once or twice, you see that the map itself WILL work.
If people want to give USEFUL feedback on the Line of sight issues, take a screenshot in game of the ones that concern you the most and put a link to those images in the docking2 feedback thread, believe me, your feedback is wanted and is helpful.
On the subject of lines of sight, because I just wanna piss Loki off (not that he cares about competitive community and reads this anyway). Derelict has 5 or 6 (don't remember the exact number) HUUUUUUGGGGGEEEEE line of sight at the end of which you can't even see the entities (that are beyond the max rendering distance). And it's an official map no less. When I pointed it out they answered me something along the line of "shut up, we don't care, look at these beautiful plants instead", but guys occlusion geometry problems hurt performance too, "shut up, didn't we tell you about how beautiful the map is ?"
Regarding Docking2, I've never managed to pinpoint what I felt was wrong with it. I already told mephiles quite a while ago and to this day I still don't know. I made some suggestions, that he followed, for some very small elements of the map. But my experience of it was 1 gather, and a bunch of SCC pub games. Some top tier players after the Custommap cup said it had potential, so that's why it was introduced in the rotation.
As for the new update coming mid-season. If you do it inbetween week matches (the first week you play docking2 and the second one), i don't see a real issue, it's like changing it after the season, it's not like you guys play docking2 during gathers or pcws anyway. If you did, you would be prepared for a change mid-season.
Mineral did it in season 6, and people were okay with it (although two teams were behind on their mineral week schedule by 2 weeks) especially since the update is the one that brought the final mineral layout you still have today (thanks to Herakles).
Well for the midseason change we made sure that no one has played docking2 so far so every team plays the same map. I was in contact with vindaloo who wanted me to do another update for season 9 (as I said the central changes were originally planned for season 10) and the deadline was week 3. If the update isn't approved by then, we would have played the old version. It got approved, I received mostly positive feedback about the changes. There are still some small bugs I intend to fix until the matches starts but it is nothing that changes gameplay (stuckspots and stuff).
Oh and if you want to provide the best feedback possible so heavy exploits can be found and eliminated (like OP spots lign of sight wise in key locations) I'd recommend multiple PCWs/Testmatches of (almost) equally skilled div 1 teams. Preferably chams and vanquish... though I know this won't happen cause I think both teams hate this map^^
Docking has the WORST LoS issues then any other map in this comp season.
Most of the LoS issues you discuss are all limited to a single room, and with that being said i dont see how thats a problem. Docking 2 on the other is just awful with LoS. On what map am i able to see through 3 different rooms and kill a lifeform. None but docking 2 you can do that with ESCALATORS* to departures. That ONE LoS issue alone trumps any of the ones you guys mentioned, to back up your maps design.Because if you cant see that escalators to departures is a major problem, how the hell are you guys determining all these other maps LoS issues if you guys cant even establish your own maps LoS problems.
There certainly is a potential in this map, but dont start criticizing other official maps problems which most of the problems you guys state about other maps, arent actually problems. Until you guys can solidify your own problems in your map.
First up, we aren't critisizing official maps, we are pointing out that similar issues exist in widely accepted maps, what we are doing is asking for more cohesive feedback than "LOS Sucks".. what you managed to do (in your own little condescending way) is actually point out a LOS that does indeed need addressing... although I would love to see a screenshot of this EXCALTORS*** to departures LoS you speak of... considering the big walls and such that should block the LoS I don't honestly believe you can see into departures from EXCALATORS!!!**************
Secondly, feel free to point out ANY line of sight issues you find (or any issues you find at all), rather than bitching and moaning to each other on TS or saying "fix map plox" like 99% of people do, actually provide screenshots, it takes 10 seconds to get screenshots to give us and they are infinitely better than shitty vague descriptions.
Third, the REASON the room is called EXCALATORS is mephs shitty humour about the fact that the room USED to have an escalator in it... and now it doesn't... so he merged the words escalator and ex...making excalators.
(note, to say that we cannot express issues with official maps because we haven't made a solid map ourselves is as stupid as saying YOU cannot express concerns with our maps because you haven't made a map at all.
Also, No one is denying that Docking2 has its issues, but mapping takes a LONG time to do, and it takes even longer to fix shit that needs fixing. Be patient and give the vital feedback we need to make the map fulfill its potential)
