Afaik the rules are being updated for S6.

There is still a few points i would like to be discussed.

1/ The enforcing of vanilla skins and male models for matches.

2/A real US East server for matches.

I was going to create a thread to discuss the various rule changes later today.
I personally agree with forcing male models. But could you please give some arguments for the skins?

For the server, Yes we do need a real US east server that we can use as a good home/away server or middleground server for US West vs EU.

Edit: Just throwing an idea out there. What if there is an NS2+ option to force all skins to default and models to male from your perspective?? People can still use their skins, people can see them (If casters turn it off at least).

If you want to be strict on those two things, I don't see why you would speak so highly of removing viewmodels. Removing viewmodels is more of an advantage than any of the things you mention. I still think viewmodels should be enforced for everyone. Practicly everyone have disabled viewmodels on aliens due to the obvious advantages.

But I agree with you to some extent and think there should be some options to enforce default skins clientside like Yaluzan suggested. I think people should be able to use any of the vanilla skins of their desire. After all, they payed money for it and not all the community members are males in real life. But a clientside enforcement option would be really nice.

Yes, US East server pls, I miss my 120 ping vs americans :/

swalk says

If you want to be strict on those two things, I don't see why you would speak so highly of removing viewmodels. Removing viewmodels is more of an advantage than any of the things you mention. I still think viewmodels should be enforced for everyone. Practicly everyone have disabled viewmodels on aliens due to the obvious advantages.

But I agree with you to some extent and think there should be some options to enforce default skins clientside like Yaluzan suggested. I think people should be able to use any of the vanilla skins of their desire, after all, they payed money for it and not all the community members are males in real life. But a clientside enforcement option would be really nice.

Yes, US East server pls, I miss my 120 ping vs americans :/

Swalk, how many times can a man or a woman write the word "viewmodels" per month? :D

About the EAST Servers, when me and Vindaloo made the tracert back in the early s5 i wrote to Wasabi, and he made a ticket at the current hoster and asked why the fuck do they call it EAST when it traces back to middle of the US and A? But still no word from the guy

Thats the point swalk the viewmodel ain't a paid option.

White skulk skins on mezzanine are harder to spot than shadow ones.

Are male/female hitboxes exactly the same?
Last time I asked on the slack even dragon wasnt totally sure and said there might be a difference.

A ns+ option could be cool but there might be more important things atm, and it wouldn't cover the hitboxes problem if it exists.

herakles says

Thats the point swalk the viewmodel ain't a paid option.

White skulk skins on mezzanine are harder to spot than shadow ones.

Are male/female hitboxes exactly the same?
Last time I asked on the slack even dragon wasnt totally sure and said there might be a difference.

A ns+ option could be cool but there might be more important things atm, and it wouldn't cover the hitboxes problem if it exists.

`
Yea if Hitboxes aren't the same then it doesn't help much. other than forcing skins. We need proof they aren't the same before we can think about forcing it in the rules.

Ryssk says

Swalk, how many times can a man or a woman write the word "viewmodels" per month? :D

I know you disabled them too Ryssk. You can try to count how many times a man can stand up for fair play, good idea.

herakles says

Thats the point swalk the viewmodel ain't a paid option.

White skulk skins on mezzanine are harder to spot than shadow ones.

Are male/female hitboxes exactly the same?
Last time I asked on the slack even dragon wasnt totally sure and said there might be a difference.

A ns+ option could be cool but there might be more important things atm, and it wouldn't cover the hitboxes problem if it exists.

So you admit that the only reason viewmodels is "ok" is because "it's available to everyone/you don't have to pay for it"? Well, we've had a few instances of cheating bans including aimbot and wallhack. Those are probably available for everyone if you search your browser for it and they probably don't cost money either. But none of us think that is okay, or do you?
Removing viewmodels is essentially similar to a wallhack and serves the purpose of giving you a much greater and clearer field of vision. Pure advantage and should be considered a cheat in the league. A good league is focused on fair play and keeping the amount of questionable modifications to an absolute minimum, that is not the case with NSL and viewmodels. I think only HUD modifications should be deemed okay, because viewmodels are very questionable, especially for aliens. It is still considered a cheat and is not available on most public servers with ns2+ - remember wallhacks dont increase your accuracy, which was your main "proof" of getting it allowed, right? But they sure do help you make you see your targets easier and that is why so many people disabled them for aliens especially, since it's a pretty good advantage when you are trying to bite a marine to not have the viewmodels obscure your vision from about 15% up to about 75%(that amount of obscurity from the viewmodel during combat is not in any other competetive game that I know of and I think it is a skill to work around it and still keep track of your targets) of the screen, when the mouth of the skulk is "closed".

White skulks have trouble hiding in the dark. Tradeoff.

What I remember from when female marine were implemented, they were said to have the same hitbox as the male marine because of the obvious problem that the model is smaller and it would ruin balance. Not sure why that should be changed for any reason, but it's a good idea to test it and make sure before doing anything drastic to the rules.

swalk says

What I remember from when female marine were implemented, they were said to have the same hitbox as the male marine because of the obvious problem that the model is smaller and it would ruin balance. Not sure why that should be changed for any reason, but it's a good idea to test it and make sure before doing anything drastic to the rules.

Yea we need proof before we can set anything in the rules about the hitbox.

Yaluzan says

Yea we need proof before we can set anything in the rules about the hitbox.

Isn't that the wrong way around? As long as we are not sure that the hitboxes are the same for male and female, one should be enforced. Onces its proven to be same, and with that fair, you can allow them.

@swalk The difference with viewmodels vs skins is, that you can decide for your self if you want viewmodels or not. With skins someone else decides which skin you see. I, for one, have much more problems seeing shadow skulks in darker rooms then normal ones.

I don't give a shit about viewmodels / skins / models.

If female model gives hitbox bonus and has no cons, I'm still not that bothered if they're enforced or not because the hitbox is probably only a negligible change. I've never thought "God damn shadow skulk impossibruuu to see" or "Fucking female marines being 2 skinny 4 parasite / lerk spike".

US East servers are a joke when they are routing west first, but there are some US east (might just be public I can't remember) where I hit less than 100ms which I'm fine with.

TL ; DR Herakles is a scrub. Swalk is a scrub.

Indeed Simple.

And lol Swalk.

simple says

Yaluzan says

Yea we need proof before we can set anything in the rules about the hitbox.

Isn't that the wrong way around? As long as we are not sure that the hitboxes are the same for male and female, one should be enforced. Onces its proven to be same, and with that fair, you can allow them.

Innocent until proven otherwise.

Wob says

I don't give a shit about viewmodels / skins / models.

If female model gives hitbox bonus and has no cons, I'm still not that bothered if they're enforced or not because the hitbox is probably only a negligible change. I've never thought "God damn shadow skulk impossibruuu to see" or "Fucking female marines being 2 skinny 4 parasite / lerk spike".

Not everyone has the same eyesight, when skins are by design completely different for some people there will with out a doubt be someone, in some situation if not all, that is playing at an disadvantage.

swalk your posts are nearing the quality of hltv comments, please stop.

Pls I don't want to see my LMG shaking xD

And btw why forcing the male model and not the female ? We should make a vote if one need to be forced.
I do not use the male model only because of this terrible LMG shaking burning my eyes so if we force the male model without this stupid feature, I see no problems.

I remember specifically asking about the hitboxes a few times when they were being worked on, AFAIK they are the same hitbox but they obviously have different stances/animations. But that's just what I was told, I'm not sure how you'd test it.

I asked orphan about the hitboxes. He said they are the EXACT same hitboxes. They were made intentionally the same hitboxes.

He also told me that he said the balance team should know this since he told them.

rantology says

I remember specifically asking about the hitboxes a few times when they were being worked on, AFAIK they are the same hitbox but they obviously have different stances/animations. But that's just what I was told, I'm not sure how you'd test it.

Yea, I have heard the same. it looks smaller but it is the same.

Iots says

Not everyone has the same eyesight, when skins are by design completely different for some people there will with out a doubt be someone, in some situation if not all, that is playing at an disadvantage.

Not everyone has the same reflexes, when mouses are by design completely different for some people, there will with out a doubt be someone, in some situation if not all, that is playing at a disadvantage. #enforcehardware

Reflexes / eyesight / anticipation are human characteristics which are determinants of skill in the game. Different skins make negligible changes imo. Different hitboxes is a different question.

Also by your argument, if all skins were changed to the one kind a person struggles most with, he'll be far worse off than if multiple skins were in play. I say tough luck in both scenarios tbh, if it's enforced that player unfortunately just needs to have that skill to play this game. If it's not enforced, then you just need the skill to pick out the different skinned lifeforms/marines.

IMO it's an advantage to aliens to enforce similar skins. It's quite helpful when people separate skins in skulk packs so you can track them easier.

Wob says

bs

No one is saying enforcing hardware but you, this is PC gaming. It is about drawing the line in the sand about modifying the software, the game. That line should be HUD modifications and possibly a clientside enforced default skins option.

Hacks, like removing the viewmodels should not be allowed, especially considering the effect of the viewmodels(unlike any other competetive game).

The rules should never be edited on claims that have the slightest possibility of being void.

All this crying about muh viewmodels its just getting fucking sad by now.

+ about skin rule

Also you can provide an opportunity for teams to determine whether to allow or to forbid custom skins during certain match

For me when I would play in CAL back in 1.6 viewmodels had to be on at all times. They felt like having it off would make the mechanics easier, and that it got rid of a lot of the stuff that made the game slightly more difficult, the clutter essentially.. Simply because I started with those rules, is why I feel as though viewmodels should always be on for NS2. (And other people have played other games where viewmodels were fair game to be off, so they feel as though it should be on if the person decides to have them off)

But again, I don't care enough and feel as though if people want to use it, then use it, if not don't. Either way it's best if just someone came to a decision within the league if they want it to be allowed or not. Then implement it.

But in terms of rules, I just hope that some day that people can stop being lawyers and identify loop holes and use them to get the benefits they want. Just because the rules don't specifically state something doesn't mean that it's okay to do so. We don't have experts drafting up the rules of the league, we have individuals and it's silly to expect everything to be jotted down perfectly. Referees and Admins should use their brains when a situation comes up and it's clear that something just isn't right to do, and enforce it accordingly. Hearing "Oh, well it isn't in the rules so. it should be allowed" even when it is unsportsmanlike is ridiculous. Everyone needs to stop abusing this.

Anywho, stuff.

swalk says

I'm a moron rampaging on about view models even when quoting you about skins

+1

I don't even like playing on the one "NA East" server that's available right now and I'm on the east coast. It's apparently in Toronto. I ping about the same to Dallas servers. Meanwhile, I can play on Paris and London with pings as low as 90. How can we not get a NYC/NJ/PA server location?

I don't really care about the playermodels and skins though. Female/Male marines never felt any different with hit reg. Then with skins, I've always thought its dumb for a team NOT to use all the same default skin. It makes for targeting aliens on Marines a hell of a lot easier when you have two lifeforms with different skins. You just call out "Shoot the white Fade first." I think the whole White skulk skins being harder to see vs shadow skin is a weak argument since they have tradeoffs.

And to Swalk's persistent campaign against viewmodels - I think Syknik's POV on this sums up the consensus on this pretty well. Some people choose to use it, other do not. Some games enforce it, other do not. NS2 is unique though: http://s14.postimg.org/8tlqfn3o1/2015_01_18_00001.jpg
I can't think of another game where the HUD covers 80% of your field of view in any scenario let alone every time you attack, and this is a fast-paced FPS, so I think its acceptable that people would want to play competitively with viewmodels off. Stop trying to spin viewmodels as "hack."

Wob says

bs

earlier comment tard

loMe says

text

For me it's not about chosing to turn them on/off whether I like it or not, I feel forced to have them off to not be at a disadvantage to almost everyone else, exactly what I expected and predicted.

Like Syknik says is that there are two opposing sides to it, the question is which side is correct in regards to ns2 as a game. And yes, the viewmodels obscure more than any other game, exactly why viewmodels should be enforced on this game. They matter much less on games like quake and cs, because they don't obscure nowhere near as much of the screen as it does in ns2.

The only solid point I have seen in this thread so far is an NSL East server. I am pretty sure we don't actually have a real east server anymore and it would be nice to have.

As for viewmodels, only 2 people actually give a shit. gg

I'm fine with forcing alien skins. I think it should probably be done for "competitive" reasons, but I also don't really think it matters with the current level of play.

If we force marine skins along the same train of thought, then I think we should force female marines. Male marines' LMG model vibrates whenever you fire (viewmodels must be on). The female marine's LMG model does not vibrate nearly as much. If we're going to force male marines, then this should be fixed first. I am aware that people can just turn view models off, but forcing marine models shouldn't be a detriment to those who choose to use view models enabled.

That's true. Female/male and alien vanilla imo.

The server is more important anyway, 6 players at 180 ping is annoying :

Are skins at all important? I don't understand the need to regulate them as long as they're official skins. Never once in any game have I heard someone say "I would have had that skulk if he didn't have shadow skin." Quite the opposite actually.

When a team uses different skins on their aliens it actually makes it easier to keep track of different targets in larger engagements.

The female marine model is the same hitbox as the male. I don't see what the point is in forcing everyone to use the same skin.